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	<title>Comments on: Mac browsers: can you believe your eyes?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/</link>
	<description>There is no such thing as a great print straight from the camera.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 11:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Nelson Chen</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-31956</link>
		<dc:creator>Nelson Chen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 19:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-31956</guid>
		<description>Now that the wide gamut LCD monitors become more common, the world is no longer sRGB, be it Windows, Mac or HDTV.  The problem is reddish skin tones and unrealistically over-saturated colors when the online galleries are viewed with one of those new wide gamut monitors.

Firefox 3 is released to face this challenge.  The wide gamut monitor owners can once again see the web galleries the same way as the folks with sRGB limited monitors or TV do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that the wide gamut LCD monitors become more common, the world is no longer sRGB, be it Windows, Mac or HDTV.  The problem is reddish skin tones and unrealistically over-saturated colors when the online galleries are viewed with one of those new wide gamut monitors.</p>
<p>Firefox 3 is released to face this challenge.  The wide gamut monitor owners can once again see the web galleries the same way as the folks with sRGB limited monitors or TV do.</p>
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		<title>By: Bilgehan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-31924</link>
		<dc:creator>Bilgehan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 16:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-31924</guid>
		<description>I still don't understand why an image that is converted to sRGB color space looks different if it doesn't have a color profile. I am testing with two images both have sRGB color space but one has color profile attached, one not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don&#8217;t understand why an image that is converted to sRGB color space looks different if it doesn&#8217;t have a color profile. I am testing with two images both have sRGB color space but one has color profile attached, one not.</p>
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		<title>By: manu chao</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-31746</link>
		<dc:creator>manu chao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-31746</guid>
		<description>"On the Mac, when no ICC profile is embedded in the photo, it uses the crayons of your monitor profile."

Which is exactly the same as what happens under Windows. It is just that the default monitor profile on Windows (almost) always has a gamma of 2.2 (which happens to be the same gamma as the sRGB color space) and on a Mac the default gamma is 1.8. If you change the gamma on the Mac to 2.2, which you can do with built-in tools, there is no fundamental difference anymore between the two systems. Except that on the Mac much more programs do respect embedded profiles in images than on Windows (eg, iWork vs. Office).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On the Mac, when no ICC profile is embedded in the photo, it uses the crayons of your monitor profile.&#8221;</p>
<p>Which is exactly the same as what happens under Windows. It is just that the default monitor profile on Windows (almost) always has a gamma of 2.2 (which happens to be the same gamma as the sRGB color space) and on a Mac the default gamma is 1.8. If you change the gamma on the Mac to 2.2, which you can do with built-in tools, there is no fundamental difference anymore between the two systems. Except that on the Mac much more programs do respect embedded profiles in images than on Windows (eg, iWork vs. Office).</p>
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		<title>By: meish dot org &#187; Colour-shift conundrum</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-23459</link>
		<dc:creator>meish dot org &#187; Colour-shift conundrum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-23459</guid>
		<description>[...] This is a useful article on what&#8217;s going on beneath the bonnet: Mac Browsers: can you believe your eyes?. Answer: no, basically. Anyone else have this experience? And anyone know what to do about it? Suggestions welcome! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This is a useful article on what&#8217;s going on beneath the bonnet: Mac Browsers: can you believe your eyes?. Answer: no, basically. Anyone else have this experience? And anyone know what to do about it? Suggestions welcome! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: apt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-21691</link>
		<dc:creator>apt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-21691</guid>
		<description>Seriously - a blog entry on colour management and visibility in blogs and you use bright white text on a black background. Great readability right there...
You should definitely design a web browser!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seriously - a blog entry on colour management and visibility in blogs and you use bright white text on a black background. Great readability right there&#8230;<br />
You should definitely design a web browser!</p>
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		<title>By: 42</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-21681</link>
		<dc:creator>42</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 15:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-21681</guid>
		<description>All browsers, even Safari, assume an image is in sRGB if there is no embedded profile, or no tag with the name of the desired color space described in a profile.

If an image is tagged sRGB, it doesn't matter. In assuming sRGB both ColorSync and Windows ICM convert from the source color space (assumed to be sRGB) to the hardware profile of the monitor, regardless of what it might be. At least, that is the way it is supposed to work. If a browser doesn't do this and displays raw pixels, that's not a knock against color management. While an sRGB tag would seem to be superfluous, it's good to have if that image later needs to be converted to another color space.

Since most people don't calibrate their monitors, and the default on a new OS is a monitor profile whether good or bad, this works out when all image data is not only IN sRGB but when it is assumed that all image data is thus. When content producers use best practices and embed or tag images and work in a color-managed process, this breaks on browsers that ignore profiles if content is not converted to sRGB. 

Blaming Colorsync for lazy display management is not really a valid gripe. Depending on device-dependent profiles like those for monitors and cameras is a sure way to end up with crap.

The way around this is to always convert images intended for the web from the source color space regardless of what it is (could even be CMYK) to sRGB, either tagged or not (tagged is better), in Photoshop or another app that understands this stuff. I don't know how consumer apps like iPhoto manage color, if at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All browsers, even Safari, assume an image is in sRGB if there is no embedded profile, or no tag with the name of the desired color space described in a profile.</p>
<p>If an image is tagged sRGB, it doesn&#8217;t matter. In assuming sRGB both ColorSync and Windows ICM convert from the source color space (assumed to be sRGB) to the hardware profile of the monitor, regardless of what it might be. At least, that is the way it is supposed to work. If a browser doesn&#8217;t do this and displays raw pixels, that&#8217;s not a knock against color management. While an sRGB tag would seem to be superfluous, it&#8217;s good to have if that image later needs to be converted to another color space.</p>
<p>Since most people don&#8217;t calibrate their monitors, and the default on a new OS is a monitor profile whether good or bad, this works out when all image data is not only IN sRGB but when it is assumed that all image data is thus. When content producers use best practices and embed or tag images and work in a color-managed process, this breaks on browsers that ignore profiles if content is not converted to sRGB. </p>
<p>Blaming Colorsync for lazy display management is not really a valid gripe. Depending on device-dependent profiles like those for monitors and cameras is a sure way to end up with crap.</p>
<p>The way around this is to always convert images intended for the web from the source color space regardless of what it is (could even be CMYK) to sRGB, either tagged or not (tagged is better), in Photoshop or another app that understands this stuff. I don&#8217;t know how consumer apps like iPhoto manage color, if at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-21665</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 05:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-21665</guid>
		<description>That's like saying that browser's that follow web standards are doing it wrong and should be more like Internet Explorer because most people use IE. Web Standards like ICC Profiles are a GOOD thing. Internet Explorer screws everything up for Web designers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s like saying that browser&#8217;s that follow web standards are doing it wrong and should be more like Internet Explorer because most people use IE. Web Standards like ICC Profiles are a GOOD thing. Internet Explorer screws everything up for Web designers.</p>
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		<title>By: loroy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-21311</link>
		<dc:creator>loroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-21311</guid>
		<description>Please, somebody just tell me what do I need to do to make what I see  on my mac what others see. 

 Is it just all bad news for Mac owners.

 That sucks. 

 Is there some way around this by saving the photographs in an different format photoshop?

 I'm still on the trial period. I need to know this before I shell out the membership fee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please, somebody just tell me what do I need to do to make what I see  on my mac what others see. </p>
<p> Is it just all bad news for Mac owners.</p>
<p> That sucks. </p>
<p> Is there some way around this by saving the photographs in an different format photoshop?</p>
<p> I&#8217;m still on the trial period. I need to know this before I shell out the membership fee.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-19942</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jun 2007 04:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-19942</guid>
		<description>So I've been running into this issue a lot lately. Thanks to a few posts on SmugMug, I believed it to be a Safari problem for a while. However, now I'm quite sure it isn't. 

Take a look at this the site linked with my name (http://safariphoto.blogspot.com) in Safari. The top photo is perfect there. In no other browser/OS combination is it possible get the photo to look that good. And SmugMug messes it up.

Since Photoshop, iPhoto, and other photo programs all support the use of color profiles, I think we can assume that color profiles are a good thing for the digital photo community in general.

You argue that Microsoft and HP are wonderful because they say, "Forget color profiles! Forget photographers! Forget professional photo apps! We like TV!" And this is supposed to be a good thing?

I don't know about you, but I really don't want the capabilites of a TV to be the lowest common denominator for viewing photos on the web. That's just not logical.

My photos look good in iPhoto. If I export from iPhoto at the size I want and then upload to ImageShack, which won't remove the profile, they look good on the web in Safari. Smugmug's upload process causes my photos to lose color and since I know there are other ways to make it work, I can safely say that Smugmug is part of the problem for me.

Your site is great at just about everything, except actually showing my pictures the way I see them in my editing application. That is your problem, and IE's problem, and Firefox's problem. it's not Safari's problem for supporting modern common color management features. Firefox is fixing it in 3.0. And since IE follows Firefox they'll be next. Very soon it's going to be only your problem.

My suggestion, and request, is that you include color profiles (the original profile, not a conversion to sRGB) with all image sizes except for the two thumbnail sizes. Although I personally would prefer it to be in those too. I understand that's a bandwidth cost decision, but if another site offered this feature at your same price, I'd happily move all my photos over tomorrow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I&#8217;ve been running into this issue a lot lately. Thanks to a few posts on SmugMug, I believed it to be a Safari problem for a while. However, now I&#8217;m quite sure it isn&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Take a look at this the site linked with my name (http://safariphoto.blogspot.com) in Safari. The top photo is perfect there. In no other browser/OS combination is it possible get the photo to look that good. And SmugMug messes it up.</p>
<p>Since Photoshop, iPhoto, and other photo programs all support the use of color profiles, I think we can assume that color profiles are a good thing for the digital photo community in general.</p>
<p>You argue that Microsoft and HP are wonderful because they say, &#8220;Forget color profiles! Forget photographers! Forget professional photo apps! We like TV!&#8221; And this is supposed to be a good thing?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know about you, but I really don&#8217;t want the capabilites of a TV to be the lowest common denominator for viewing photos on the web. That&#8217;s just not logical.</p>
<p>My photos look good in iPhoto. If I export from iPhoto at the size I want and then upload to ImageShack, which won&#8217;t remove the profile, they look good on the web in Safari. Smugmug&#8217;s upload process causes my photos to lose color and since I know there are other ways to make it work, I can safely say that Smugmug is part of the problem for me.</p>
<p>Your site is great at just about everything, except actually showing my pictures the way I see them in my editing application. That is your problem, and IE&#8217;s problem, and Firefox&#8217;s problem. it&#8217;s not Safari&#8217;s problem for supporting modern common color management features. Firefox is fixing it in 3.0. And since IE follows Firefox they&#8217;ll be next. Very soon it&#8217;s going to be only your problem.</p>
<p>My suggestion, and request, is that you include color profiles (the original profile, not a conversion to sRGB) with all image sizes except for the two thumbnail sizes. Although I personally would prefer it to be in those too. I understand that&#8217;s a bandwidth cost decision, but if another site offered this feature at your same price, I&#8217;d happily move all my photos over tomorrow.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/#comment-14531</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2007 20:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/?p=5#comment-14531</guid>
		<description>So I understand the different outputs for different monitors and different systems - okay.  But does smugmug's printer go off of the sRGB settings as well?  read: do you also have to calibrate for prints?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I understand the different outputs for different monitors and different systems - okay.  But does smugmug&#8217;s printer go off of the sRGB settings as well?  read: do you also have to calibrate for prints?</p>
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